From Evacuee to Emergency Manager: Robert Cosma on Indigenous Leadership

Pristine land, majestic, unforgiving and strong, home for thousands of years for Indigenous people who respected the land, the animals and fish which sustain them. National Government began in 1989 to reestablish a strong political government structure.

Their government includes the Tŝilhqot’in Nation and Tŝilhqot’in communities of and Xeni Gwet’in has come after a long and at times horrific relationship with the colonial settlers due to mainly lack of truth, listening, and respect from settlers.

The Chilcotin War marked a key moment in the history of the region, one marked by smallpox spread through blankets, decimating the Indigenous population at a rate which many would describe as

The horrors continued with residential schools, the 60s scoop and missing and murdered Indigenous women.

Williams Lake, which is home to many Tŝilhqot’in people, is where Phyllis Webstad's Orange Shirt Day story originated from. Today, the TNG, or Tŝilhqot’in National Government, has developed its structure to support First Nations on the path to self-determination through jurisdiction and the self-determination of This includes the landmark 2014 Supreme Court decision returning 1,600 kilometres as Tŝilhqot’in Title Land. In recent years,

They've experienced a number of record breaking wildfire seasons, which have made preparedness critical and evacuations frequent and prolonged. Floods have also affected the people of the river, disrupting fishing, hunting and transportation.

Landslides are common, in 2024, the Tŝilhqot’in landslide completely blocked their most critical Salmon River in Farwell Canyon. During an incredible demonstration of landslides and water, the Tŝilhqot’in were among the first emergency planners. Today, they are led by Robert Cosma, their emergency services manager.

Welcome to the wildfires, floods and chaos communications podcast. I'm your host, Tim Conrad.

Tim Conrad (timsbits) (01:58)
Well, I am excited to be joined in person by a great person I know. I've had the pleasure of working with him. This is Robert Cosma. So I'm happy to introduce the audience to you. Robert, tell us where you're from and tell us about your family. Well, I'm originally from Ontario.

moved out here 12 years ago into Williams Lake and I started working in the mills and then after 2017 after being an evacuee and seeing how terrible it is to be an evacuee back in 2017 I made a life choice to see what I could do to make that better.

So I started my journey in emergency management at that point. I started working as an emergency manager for Nazko. And I did that for a little short period of time. And then I moved on to working with Esdilagh First Nations. And I worked with them as their emergency program coordinator for about five years. And now I'm at my current position here with TNG. Over the time, I've been able to

help shape and push not only my personal agenda when it comes to emergency management, but the First Nations agenda when it comes to emergency management.

being an advocate for the voice of the First Nations. I have an eight year old son who is a Nazko band member and I've had the great pleasure of being part of their family for over 10 years now. My late father-in-law was Roger Jimmie who was the chief of Lhoosk’uz for over 30 years. He unfortunately passed away a few years back from COVID but I had the pleasure of listening

and learning from his lessons and the stories that he was able to tell about the wildfires and the animals and the land in the Cariboo and if anybody knows who Roger Jimmie was, he was one of the forefront chiefs that helped the movement for aboriginal rights for First Nations people in Canada, storming the parliament buildings and

you know, being that protester out there for the rights of Indigenous people. So I had the privilege to learn from his teachings and to continue on a lot of that work that he started. And it might not be in the rights of Indigenous people, but the rights of Indigenous people when it comes to emergencies. And how we deal with emergencies on First Nations land and how we work with the government to, for the government to realize that this is First

Nations land and we have to understand and respect the First Nations communities that we're working with because they're just like the the people that are in the municipalities and the people that are in the big cities when they're being evacuated it hurts them just as much as it hurts everybody else so we have to respect that and understand that we're uplifting them from their homes. We need to make sure that we're treating them the right way because they're not all used to going to

more or save on foods to buy their groceries. We tend to forget that when we're evacuating communities that live off the land, where 90 % of their food come from what they hunt and what they pick or what they gather. So then you're taking them and you're out rooting them into a big city where they can't do that. They don't have their moose meat or their, you know, their deer meat or their berries that they've picked all year round to support their diets.

So now you're expecting to eat greasy food.

out of a restaurant that their bodies aren't used to. So in 2017, this is exactly what happened. I was evacuated with two elders that were in their late 80s. And they didn't want to eat the casino food in Quesnel every single day. They didn't want to go to the casino three times a day to eat and listen to people say, why are those Indians in here again? It hurt them.

Right it brought them back to being in residential school and you know how they were mistreated and how the racism was back It hurts them. Yeah, right and then they didn't want to leave their hotel room. You're evacuated for over a month Right. They don't want to leave now. So then they stay in their hotel right and none of that like now school like that summer like 2017 2018 2019 I was evacuated for 24 weeks all together in those three years

Right? And you don't understand how it affects these people, right?

there's no big city that's been evacuated for 24 weeks, right? But you're taking families out of their homes and putting them in a city for 24 weeks when they're used to living where they've been living their whole life, right? And then to deal with people talking bad about them or why are these people here again? Why are they in the same clothes? Like it hurts people, right? So that's why I've made it a mission of mine.

to make sure that we can make that better. Like me, you and all the colleagues that we work with day to day, we have the power to make that better. It's just a matter of, are we gonna willing to work together to make it happen? Right? Because, know, and I'm gonna go a little political here, but we know we can't rely on political parties all the time to you.

helps solve a lot of these issues for us. But we can do it together, right? And very lucky that I have the core people that I do have in the Cariboo that I work with every day that wanna see changes.

and work hard to support the people. And that's like what I really enjoy about what I do. So that's a little bit about my background and my family, right? You know, so I call Nazko home. Actually, it's a little not Nazko itself, but a little piece of Nazko called Trout Lake where my mother-in-law lives. And we have a nice little cabin there. my kids, my kids, grandparents live there. And these great grandparents live there.

And that's where we go for every holidays, where we go for Christmas. you know, for the last 10 plus years, that's been my home. Right. And like I said, everything I do today is because I have a passion for it. Because, you know, what I do every day is building a future for my kid. So, yeah.

Yeah, it's a good time to bring in this that First Nations and Indigenous beliefs are seven generations ahead, right? So you think seven generations in advance and what the impact will be. And we don't think about that. I can tell you in our settlers' brains, it's not. It's immediate. And what do we get now? And that's the thing.

as a settler myself, right? Like I have First Nations blood in me, know, my grandmother is First Nations, but she was born at a time where they don't talk about it. know, my grandparents don't talk about it. you know, so they were raised by a white family and raised white. And my whole life has been that way.

Coming out here and meeting the family that I've met and meeting the communities that I've worked for and being part of this, you know, you have to, it trains you to change your outlook and how you think and you know, you build the connections and you feel their pain and then it makes you go, wow, we've been doing things wrong for a long time.

Right? Like these people have been around for thousands of years. Maybe we should really turn around and look at what they've been doing because it was working before we came around. Right? And once you start thinking that way.

it changes, you know, and if I can change, anybody can change. You just got to open up your eyes and, you know, stop looking at the matrix, right? And think outside the box.

Tim Conrad (timsbits) (09:52)
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Tim Conrad (timsbits) (10:34)
So I always say there's a reason why First Nations people use the medicine now. It's in a circle. It's not in a square box. Right. Us settlers and, you know, white men, they think in that white box, we got to check off that box. It's a square box. Right. Do you see square boxes in anything First Nations people do?

It's a round because a circle can be moved. It can be manipulated. A square box is always a square box. It can be stretched into a rectangle, but it's still a square box. So I always tell people that, you know, think outside that box, make it a round because then you can still move. There's no corners to be bent in a round box. The corners are already bent. And there's a reason why the First Nations people use a circle. And ⁓ when we were in

Penticton this year. I was listening to the Penticton Indian Band and how they were working with the local military there. And instead of having their art chart, the regular art chart in the square boxes, they did it in a round circle. And I was like, that is awesome.

Right. And if we all started thinking like that round circle, things will change. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I know it's and it just touch on this you you grew up in was it Calgary was it Calgary right. So and and and but you kind of didn't grow up.

with it being tied to your your indigenous history right like you for first nations people that went to my high school yeah went to like there was yeah i had i had a friend when i was 12 years old who was first nations and he brought me to my first bad walk yeah and that was kind of like my it was a powwow and Edmonton at the rec at the Rexall center so you could just imagine right i was like holy moly you know and they you know when you see that tiktok video and they're all like

It was like all the Indians from all around. It was like that, man. was like the craziest thing I ever seen, right? And it kind of like sparked something in my heart, you know what I mean? then it was years later, right? Like I moved here when I was 28. Right? So you go from 12 and first time ever having, you know, anything to do with First Nations people. And then when you're 28 and I moved out here and I remember, you know, there's a little racist, but I remember saying to my mom was like,

this is where all the native people live. Because you don't see them in Calgary, you don't. If you do, you see it, they're either like the homeless people or they live on the reserves, right? So you don't see them very often. And then I moved out here and it was like, holy moly. And then I remember, because my sister is married to a native man and I have my nieces and nephews are half braids. And I remember calling my grandmother and I was like, grandma.

Will you do, you know, like a DNA test and like help me, you know, learn my my native background?" And she told me no.

And I said to her, was like, grandma, you got to realize where I live, they're proud to be First Nations. Like I work for First Nations, my kids are First Nations. I would love to be able to prove it on another level that, you know, I am First Nations too. And she said, when I grew up, it wasn't something you were proud of. And she's like, I didn't learn that way. I didn't live that way. I'm white. She hung up the phone on me. know what I mean? So it shows you how different.

society was back 80 years ago to what society is now and how proud two different sides of the world can be because my grandmother is in Ontario, right? And then here and even from here to Calgary, how different like

my kids growing up and he's growing up in a school with all natives. There's more natives in this school than here's white people. That was not the case when I was in school, even in university. think my university had two native people in it. And then you come out here and it's like, holy moly, like they're proud. So it's different how the world is different in just little places. 16 hour drive or 13 hour drive.

And so you work with

First Nations now, can you tell us a little bit about that experience working with nations? I've never met such proud and hardworking people. They, you know, when you see it firsthand, it really changes the stigma of what you hear. The biggest thing I've learned is how smart these people are. Yeah. You know, like

It's amazing how you can go into a community and you're going with one mindset and come out with a completely different mindset. And the pride and the love they have for their land and the work they want to do on their land is phenomenal. I don't think any of us have that.

You look at city workers in town and you know, they don't care about cutting down trees or taking out the garbage or, but you go and you sit in these communities and you watch them when they talk about their forestry and their old growth or they talk about the berries or the animals, the passion that you feel when they're talking. You don't get that anywhere else. You don't get anywhere else. You're not going to get that passion.

Yeah.

Right. And if you spend enough time...

that passion starts to rub off on you. You know, like you started to look at like, when I go back to Nazko, you know, it's almost a three hour drive from here to Nazko and you're driving home and you're like, man, I can see why they want to protect this. It's gorgeous. you drive out to Xeni Gwet’in or if you drive out to Bella Coola and you're like, man, this is gorgeous. Like no wonder they want to protect this land Right. And then you drive in the city and you're like, Oh, this is a

But we did that. We did that. You know what mean? It wasn't them that did that. But they have to live with those consequences that settlers have brought onto them. Because if wasn't for us, it would still look like that.

There wouldn't be skyscrapers and hotels and there wouldn't be that. So there's evolution, yes, but...

Is evolution in the right direction? Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's the question you gotta ask yourself. Yeah. Right. Because you can have evolution. You don't have to destroy stuff to have evolution. That's right. Yeah, you're exactly right. And I think that you really capture the passion. And that was something like we worked together in the EOC this summer and this past summer and different folks from different nations were coming in. And that was one thing I felt. It was like, wow, the passion, the pure, like right from the heart.

they were having different conversations about different families that were affected and how that was going to affect them. It's from the heart, man. My experience, I've done decades of this type of work across Canada and you just don't, like we never have those conversations. To be honest, it's very cut and dried conversations around.

we're going do this and this and that's it. And it's funny though, because sometimes in my role that I play day to day, sometimes I have to think about those hard decisions. It's like, OK, well, maybe we should do it this way. But then I have to remember, well.

maybe we have to do it this way. You know what I mean? Like, let's sit back and let's look out. I look at it through a cultural lens and does this make sense? Or even ask an elder, right? Or, know, it's not hard to pick up the phone and be like, hey, you know, is this the right thing to do? Because they're going to tell you, right? And if you don't mind, I'll tell you a little story. there was, ⁓ have you heard of Batnuni Yep. So there was a, this was a few years

I think it was like 2019. There was a fire out in Batnuni and there was a gentleman who worked at BC Wildfire, name was Richard, and he called me up and he's like, hey, I got a huge favor to ask you. And I was like, what is that? He's like, there's a fire out in Batnuni and I know it's approaching a very cultural sensitive area. Can you call your father-in-law and just ask him what should the protocol be before we approach this area?

So I called up my father-in-law and I told him what was going on. He said, tell him to bring some tobacco. Tell him to put some tobacco on the ground and just talk. And just be like, hey, I'm here. I'm gonna protect you. I'm not here to hurt you. But at the same time, we don't want to see this fire hurt you. So can we please come and protect you? And I thought, you know what? That's change.

That's us moving in the proper area for somebody from somewhere like BC Wildfires to even reach out and be like, hey, we're going into this area. What should we do? I thought, man, that is huge movements.

Right. And that was that was in 2019. Yeah. Right. Now the amount of movements we've made now is huge because they won't even go into an area without consulting with us now. Yeah. You know, and that just shows a little bit of work and the conversations like we're having right now. Yeah. Make movement. And that's why I said earlier, it's our colleagues that we work with every day that can make change. if you're not putting that effort in, change isn't going to happen. Right. But that

That was like one piece that's gonna stick for me forever because that was a conversation that I had with that Richard guy months and months prior to...

sensitive areas. That's what we're talking about. Sensitive areas on First Nations land. And he remembered that conversation enough to pick up the phone and say, hey, what should we do? You know what I mean? And that's what I mean. Like every that this engagements that we do, these conversations that we have, know, the seasonal readiness tables, you know, know, even though the government doesn't think those are important anymore.

but those little engagements that we do set the framework for this work that we're doing, these conversations we have, the sidebar conversations that you have, you're learning, right? And like you said, this summer when we working in the EOC there was a couple of times where you came up to me and said, hey, this is the situation, what do you think? How is this gonna affect?

asking those questions.

change the outcome of what you were planning. Absolutely. Right. But if there was no that there was no that consultation, there was no talking to that, then you like you said, it would have been like, yeah, we don't care who it affects. We're just going to this, this, this and call it a day. Yeah. Right. you know, it's important that we do those conversations and we we have these conversations. you know, it's been a journey for me, too. And it's it's something that

I've realized that it's been...

Simple conversations, honestly, like simple questions that start them and they go places and they go great places. We've done some amazing stuff because of it. And particularly, mean, like our relationship working together this summer was, it was so fulfilling and just like every opportunity that there was there was truly humbling to learn from how

Our thinking is a certain way and Indigenous thinking is a different way and bringing those together made our response so much better. And I just want to add too, you're in the room, you're in the EOC.

most of the time you were hanging out there and being part of the team and being part of decisions and there was others as well from other nations and it was awesome. Yeah and I think that's how it should be. You know what I mean? Like the EOCs need to make that extra effort to have an Indigenous representative in EOC to ask those tough questions. And if they can't answer those tough questions they know somebody who can answer those tough questions. And it makes things

like we were able to make some snap decisions real fast. we had to be snap decisions. That was the other part. was like, it's yeah, sometimes they do have to be quick and it was wonderful. that trying to get a phone call or, and what if you were in a community that doesn't have a relationship with that First Nations communities? Right now you're sending an email, you're making phone calls trying to get the right person, right? That's why I think like they're pre-planning the

engagements between local authorities and the First Nations people is the most important and we're very lucky in the Cariboo here to have such a strong relationship with each other.

that we can have those conversations and not be scared to have those tough conversations with each other too. There is some, like there's bitter honesty in some of those times, right? It's bringing up things that are not fun to talk about sometimes, right? But we have those conversations because they're important conversations to have. Exactly. So, you know, colonial based governments during emergencies, they'll prioritize things like life, infrastructure, responder safety. What are their

priorities in Indigenous communities and for First Nations? You know, think life is always number one for everybody, right? But, you know, I heard the chief this summer, he actually said, well, sometimes we have to put the life over everything else. you know, infrastructure can be rebuilt, right? Land can't, right? If we don't take care of the land.

it don't come back or it comes back in a long time.

Right. And we've seen that throughout the Cariboo with massive fires that have gone through and, and the recovery time for that land to come back is not fast. no. Those animals don't come back to the area because there's no food. Right. Now those people can't hunt because there's no animals. So it's a vicious cycle. Right. So, you know, I think the land has to be a priority in that list.

right? Life is obviously number one, right? But we can always rebuild houses, we can always rebuild community centers, we can always rebuild buildings, but we can't rebuild forestry and we can't rebuild lost life. And you know, when you come to communities like ours out west, where they rely on a lot of their hunting and their berry picking, we have to keep that in consideration when we're thinking about doing back burns, when we're thinking about

you know, how we direct the fire, you know? Are we gonna direct the fire into an open field or are we gonna direct it up the side of a mountain? You know what I mean? Like those are decisions that you have to make, Like we have to remember the land and the animals.

That's something that's been a big shift for my brain to wrap around in this settlers brain that you get. That we don't value that, we'll put infrastructure over land and it's very different because it's like the land is what you live off of. And as you've already brought up many times, the berries, the hunting, there's so much there that it provides for your people.

And without it, life doesn't go on. It's not only in First Nations communities. You take California, for example, right? A bad fire goes through California. Now all of a we're not getting strawberries and oranges and grapes and whatever else in our grocery stores. Or if we are, we're getting them at a very, very expensive cost. It's the same thing, right? And people don't tend to keep that in mind.

Right? But we can rebuild buildings. Any day we can rebuild buildings. But it takes a long time for the land to come back. It sure does. Yeah. And we've just, just on that note, this region has had some extreme fires going back, especially back to 2017. 2017 had a number of them, but it even goes back. Yeah. And, and those, you can go out in the land and you can still see that that land looks like the fire didn't happen all that long ago.

You go down, you drive down to Bella Coola from here, you can still see the damage from 2017. Like it still looks like a bomb dropped right in the middle. And you you don't see no animals. You see very minimal growth. Right? And you know, a lot of that I blame on, you know, the, there's no program to go in and clear cut.

zones that have been on fire. Right? So you get, you get this extreme fires like we had in 2017 where the fires were so hot that the trees literally bent. Well, now those trees are sitting there. Right? And all that dead growth is like this on the floor. How do we expect new growth to push their way through?

trees that are falling on top of each other. But there's no programs out there for clear cutting those areas. So there could be new growth. Right. And then when there is they pick sections and always find they try to do like the first like kilometer off the highway. So it looks nice and pretty. And then you get past that kilometer and it's fire everywhere and nobody's managing that properly. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So

And like you've already touched on some of this, but I want to dig in a little bit further. I have always been impressed with how First Nations take care of their people. And it's a very people-focused around keeping families together when they're evacuated and when they return. I love, love, love, love. Can't say enough about this, how Indigenous communities bring people back into the community. They think about the effect that the event has had on people. And then...

that mental impact, right? That mental health and mental wellbeing, and they consider that. So it's much slower process. It's not like what we experience is, which I've had many times, like you can come back tomorrow and they'll show up right now. It's an extremely different thing. So you focus on all ages from your elders right down to children, and you're always learning more as you go. can you...

Give me an example of what is something around that that sort of really demonstrates that and how you take care of people. Well, it goes back to the whether going back to is not the same as going back to the city. Right. They don't have grocery stores. Yeah. All right. So if they go back to their house and all their food spoiled, it's not like they can just get in the vehicle and drive to safeway. Yeah.

Right? Everything in their house is destroyed. When First Nations people are out of their community for too long, animals come. Not like in the cities, right? You don't have pack rats now invading your home when you live in a city. Right? But if you have a house that is off the beaten path and you run off a solar panel and generator, and now you haven't been at home for three weeks, nobody's been turning on your generator.

So that means all your food that's spoiled, means now all those animals are now in your house. Yeah. Right. So we got to think about that. Right. So a story for you. When I was telling you about where my family lives out in trout lake. Yeah. So when we were evacuated for the floods of 2018, 2019, out in Nazko we were evacuated for 24 weeks. Right. Yeah. That means nobody was turning on our generators and we have no power out there.

So we live off a generator and solar panel. Well, we had two deep freezers full of moose meat that spoiled. Right. So you can just imagine the smell. Back rats came over, took over the house, destroyed, pissed and shit on absolutely everything. And the water leaked through the foundation and was about a foot and a half in the crawl space.

Right? Well, when Red Cross came in and did their damage assessments, they seen, okay, yeah, everything's we got it. We got to rip everything out, throw everything away. But then they're like, we go to now sand all the walls because it's a log cabin. Right. And you can't get the smell of, you know, pack rat piss out of it. Right. So they had to send everything. They had to redo the flooring. But nobody went down in the crawl space.

So that water sat in the crawl space all winter and then it froze and cracked the whole foundation around the whole house. So now my mother-in-law house is technically not livable because of that, even though the house is still standing, but that was one overlooked that looked, right? So, you you got the local municipality hiring somebody to come in and do damage assessments.

They sent them out to a place where they have no clue about to do a damage assessment. They didn't bother to do a proper one. Now a family goes home and doesn't find out until the following year when, you know, an assessment was redone and your whole foundation is destroyed and now you can't live in this house. Right? So those are things that we have, we look at before we send anybody home is, okay, what's destroyed?

What's livable and what's not livable, right? Because they don't have the luxuries of going to Walmart. They have the luxuries of going to Save-On Some of these communities are three hours away from town.

I go back to the one that blew my mind this summer. think you'll remember this when I bring it up, that when we were looking at bringing everybody back in and one of the things that we always consider is fuel for vehicles and making sure all the gas stations along the way have enough fuel. And so we started to do that and you and I had a conversation and I'm like, and that was that generators, propane, all these things like

there's all sorts of other fuels that are in the mix here and need to be filled. So you told me that they're going to pull into the fuel station and they're going to fill up every jerry The whole back of the truck is going to be filled with jerry cans full of fuel. That detail alone completely changed our whole way of which we calculated what we needed for fuel. Had we not thought of that, it would have been devastating. So for Christmas, for us to go home for four days.

We fill up 20 jerry cans of gas for four days for 12 of us to go home. Because the generator runs 24 hours a day for the four days we're there.

Right. So, you know, if these people haven't been home and they run off a generator, which most of the communities do. Yeah. Right. Then you're looking at a lot of fuel consumption and then propane too, because a lot of them are their stoves and their their water and everything's on propane. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So it's just it's very unique things that we don't see, certainly in any city. I mean, I can't imagine a lot of people in the city being told that.

and they go, what are you talking about? Generator, jerrycans. You're lucky to be on, know, it's hard to say that, you know, in 2025 and there's still communities out there that still run off of generator and solar panels. Right. Trout Lake, there's four homes that run off of generator and solar panels. Yeah. Right. And they're one well for all four houses. And if the generator up on top of the hill isn't on, none of the other houses get water. That's right. Yeah.

Right? So you you think about that's 2025. Yeah. Right. Yes. Living like a third world country in Canada. Yeah. Yeah. That's sad. Yeah. And that's the reality that you manage. Right? Yeah. Like that's one of the big differences that is out there that has to be considered when we're working with First Nations. anybody that's coming in.

please take this as a lesson, like take time to learn and listen and work on the relationships. It's so freaking, it's amazing though. Right? there's been lots of great advances, as you've mentioned, tons of great advances in First Nations emergency management. I've seen just tremendous change and really, really, really positive change in recent years. But can you highlight something that you've either been part of or you've seen that you've admired?

out there? I think you know, tell you a little story. So was in Prince George at a conference and they were, somebody was standing up the talk and she said, it's so nice to see all these First Nations people coming to the table to discuss emergency management and I stood up and I said, you got it all wrong.

This is the first time you guys as a government is coming to the First Nations to discuss emergency management. And that is a changing point because up till 2017, there was nothing in BC about emergencies on First Nations land and how to manage emergencies on First Nations land. And now the government wants to come to the table and to discuss that. That is a huge change. And since then,

We have had movements. EDMA, even though EDMA doesn't know what EDMA wants to be yet, but once EDMA does know what EDMA wants to be, I think it'll be great, right? But it needs to have that input from First Nations communities and not one-on-one conversations. They need to get out to the communities and find out what the communities want. How communities see what an emergency is. Because like I've said to a lot of First Nations

communities that I work with, what we consider of emergency might not be what the government considers an emergency. Right? Food is an emergency for us, right? Drugs in the communities is an emergency for us, right? There's different types of emergencies, but might not be that earthquake, that fire, that tsunami, right?

But there's still emergencies to the communities. And that's what I tell the communities all the time. If you and your government think that that is an emergency, declare a local state of emergency. That's your power. But prior to 2017, they didn't know they could do that. There was no empowerment of First Nations communities when it came to emergencies. I feel now,

And I feel that we're in a spot now where there's a lot of self-governments out there that now feel they have the empowerment to make those decisions themselves and to handle those emergencies themselves. Men probably have been able to do it for a long time, just didn't know because it wasn't publicly spoken about. And now, you know, I think BC has done, and I think

BC are really the leaders in emergency management for First Nations communities because we've all stepped up and said, hey, we're right here. We're dealing with the same shit that you guys are, but we deal with it a different way. And this is how we want to deal with it. Here's the boat. It's leaving the dock. If you're not on it, we're leaving without you. And I think that's what First Nations people have finally started to say. And the government's going, whoa, whoa, whoa.

I think we need to start working with them, right? And hopefully it's not too late. And I think partnerships can be made. And I think there is a lot of great people in great roles in emergency management in the government that do want to see good things happen. And I think the Cariboo is a perfect example of how...

a municipality and First Nations communities can work together. Because the CRD have done a really good job working with Williams Lake First Nations, working with TNG, working with the Simpcw communities, Esket, you know, and so forth, so forth. They're doing the job, Nazko. They're doing the job because that core of people in those positions are doing the hard work.

right? Penticton Indian men, same thing, right? They're in their local government of Penticton. They're starting to get things going because they finally have core people that want to work together and see things happen. And we're going to start seeing more and more of that as we go on. And we are, right? We're seeing municipalities going, just not only because EDMA says they have to, but maybe this is a good idea.

Right? And it's nice to see. And I hope that I have influenced a lot of that. And I think I have. And I hope we continue to do that. And I don't want to see it stop. Right? And that's why when I go to conventions and when I go to conferences, I tell them, don't be scared. Like, I don't know how many times people have come up to me and said, like, where do we start?

pick up the phone. Yeah. It's that simple. Yeah. Like pick up the phone and be like, you wanna go for coffee? let's go for lunch. Right. That's all you gotta do to start the conversations. We have to put in that effort to pick up that phone. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, you do. it's worth every bit of effort as far as I'm concerned. For me, it's just been an incredible experience anytime. we've become friends and it's just been awesome. we've brought to each other, think, has been amazing. I think you pick up that phone once and you start that conversation, eventually that person becomes that...

three o'clock in the morning call with everything's hitting the fan, right? I got five people on my list. There's you, know, there's Kayla, there's Stephanie, there's Irene, you know, I got Dave Dickson know, I got a good Paul, you know, I got five or six people that I know that 3.30 in the morning, I can call them and they're gonna answer the phone for me because they know I'm not calling just to say, hey, know, right? But you have to pick up that phone, right?

I, you know, above and beyond my job, you know, I call, you know, and I say, Hey, haven't heard from you for a week. How's it going? Doing, you know, doing that wellness check, you know, I don't have to do that. It's not in my job to do that. But I know me building the relationships with you and with Stephanie and everybody else.

That strengthens the relationship for my communities to work with you guys. And that's why I do it, because if you don't, and I don't talk to you for a year, it's gonna feel real awkward when I call you and ask you for that favor. You know what I mean? And I tried telling my EPCs this too, is 90 % of the job we do in emergency management,

is networking. It is. You need to know who you're working with. You can be the best EPC in the world, but if you've got no friends to help you, you're going to be very lonely trying to do that emergency by yourself. But if you have the people, it could be a very easy job. Yeah. Agreed.

Tim Conrad (timsbits) (41:50)
Hey, this is a moment about mental wellbeing. It's something that we all have a responsibility to ourselves to be aware of and to look for ways to improve through intentional actions such as getting outside or seeking professional help. As a responder, consider taking mental health first aid, which has been very important for the work I do, interacting with people during large emergencies from residents to responders. If you are in urgent need of help in Canada, dial or text 988.

You deserve to be heard. They are there to listen. So take advantage of it. It is a safe space to talk 24 hours a day, every day of the year.

Tim Conrad (timsbits) (42:31)
So, where do you think things are going in the future? Like the next 10 to 20 years with Indigenous emergency management? I think we'll see a lot more independence. I think there's a lot of First Nations communities out there that are at the point now where they can handle most emergencies.

themselves. I don't know how that all look funding wise because a lot of communities struggle because they don't have a tax base. Mm-hmm. Right? And we all know emergency management comes from the government from taxes. Mm-hmm. Right? So that's that's a struggle that communities have because they don't have a tax base. Right? So where do they get the income to support emergencies? But I think when it comes to handling the situations, I think a lot

when we're getting to the point where they have the knowledge, I think once they get the capacity built up, they're going to be strong. And I think a lot of First Nations are getting to that point where they've realized that this is not a job that can be done on the edge of their desk and that it has to be a dedicated role. And I think that's something that's a movement that has changed in the last few years.

think

if the government, I've had this conversation before, is if we develop a proper training program for First Nations communities, I think we'll see more progress and better outcome than some of the courses that are out there that are very outdated and very municipality based. We can't have that. If you're going to be training it and like, you

I sat down with Mr. Moxon a couple years ago, two Januaries ago, and I said to him, I said, know, awesome that you're giving out funding to First Nations communities. It's great. But there should be some type of training that comes along with it.

Because if the community that you're giving funding to doesn't have the capacity to take on that, they're putting Joe in that spot or they're putting Frank in that spot. Frank might not know emergency management, right? But the community has to fill that position because they got the funding for it. Or they put out applicants and nobody applies for it because it's on First Nations land, right? So then they struggle with it, right? Then emergency happens and Frank might not know how to deal with that emergency.

Right. But if there was some type of proper First Nations training that came along with that, where they knew what they need, their role was to play in an emergency on First Nations land, because it's different on First Nations land than it is in municipality. So we can't train municipality training to First Nations people because it's two different. It's two different learnings. is two different sets of rules. Totally agree. Right. Municipality is strictly the T.

First Nations is self-government. They don't need to follow those white man rules, right? So you gotta teach it that way, right? And give them the tools to empower them to make those decisions. That's not happening right now. Because, you know, no offense to, you know, the big brother who owns the rights to training First Nations or training emergency management, it's not being done.

in a cultural way. So how do we take that and we put it into a cultural way? You know, I was talking to a certain organization, I'm not going to mention names, but I said, you call yourselves a First Nations organization, but you're teaching white men knowledge to the First Nations people and you haven't even put a cultural twist to it. So why? You know what I mean? I said,

Don't talk about, if you're talking to a First Nations community about floods, don't talk about Vancouver flooding. They don't care that Vancouver just flooded. Now, if you talk to them about a First Nations community that just flooded and what that did to that community, they're going to listen to you because it touches closer to home, right? If you talk about an earthquake, talk about something that happened on an earthquake that hit a community, you know?

Yellowknife in Northwest Territories just evacuated what, over 85,000 people last summer? Let's start using that as an example when we're teaching because that's gonna touch home. Because we just evacuated 80-something thousand people in a matter of months because of wildfires coming through their communities. And then they're all disowned, right? So if we change the way we are teaching it,

I think we're going to get more people wanting to do it. Yeah. Right. But, you know, I sat down, I was doing one of the JIBC courses and my little brother-in-law was sitting there and he was looking at this stuff and he goes, how do you sit there through that? And I said, it takes patience. And I laugh as a J.I. instructor. you know what I mean, though, right? Because he's sitting there as a young First Nations gentleman going.

that is very dry. Yeah. And I said, yeah, I know, but I'm learning something. Yeah. And he was like, what are you learning? I said, when I figure that out, I'll let you know. Right. And but if we're if we're teaching about meaningful things and this is this is a he was like 16 at the time. Right. So I was getting an honest opinion. Right. So I sat back that time and I was like, he made a good point.

Right? It's like, we've really got to read the room in the audience that we're teaching to and we're going to go teach emergency management. So I think to go back to your question, where do I see it in the future? I see better training and I know that's in the works. And I know a lot of people that are working on that right now. And I think the government is giving a lot of tools to help empower.

First Nations communities and I think we're gonna hear the voices and I think the voices are gonna come out strong and I think we're gonna see that I think honestly, I think we're gonna see a lot more First Nations community stepping up and taking the reins by the horns and Showing that they can take care of their own land and they're responsible for it Yeah, if that's through title rights or you know, I think we're gonna see a lot more of that and power to them Yeah

It's no different than a municipality. A municipality is responsible for whatever is in the bounds of that area.

A nation has that same thing. They have land that they're responsible for. They just manage it very differently. And it is. And it'll just come down to how those agreements work out with the pets and how that funding will pour through. quite frankly, know us, for example, we're more than capable of taking on a lot of that responsibility. But when it comes to the capital...

Maybe not, right? But how does that work? And how does that work through agreements, right? And I think that that's where, you know, EDMA and like I said before, the EDMA and the government don't know that yet. And I think that's what they're trying to figure out right now. Yeah. So, you know, I don't want to get into this part of the conversation. do want to give you a bit of credit that's

You folks, know, us white folk will look at it they'll hear, taxes, taxes, and they get worried about that. But I think, this is my theory watching you folks working with the money that you have, is that you are so creative with that money when you get it, because you really do value what you've gotten, and you take it and you look at it as to what it can give to your community.

And you had, I remember you brought up a cache that you you had built in a previous summer. But how you did it, I was amazed by it. But was like, you cobbled together a whole bunch of stuff, and now you've got this asset that carries forward for years. And I was thinking about it, I was like, I don't know a single municipality that did the same thing with that amount of money.

It's because it's not using that box. Right? Yeah. in the circle. Yeah. Right? know, Riske Creek is the perfect example of that, right? And it's thinking outside the box and thinking long term. Like you say, we think generations ahead, not what's going on right now. Right? And you have to continue to think like that. You know, I tell my communities that all the time. I don't think about what's happening in the moment. I think about what's going to happen next year and the year after. Right? And build your programs to that. Yeah.

Right? Because if we could get the wrong prime minister, we might not get no money. Yeah. Absolutely. All right.

So what's one thing that could be done better when there is engagement between organizations during an emergency, from a national level to the local government, doesn't matter any between, but I'm wondering what, like that engagement that happens between government levels, between utilities and industries, what's something that they can do that could be better when they're engaging with indigenous communities?

You know what? It's follow through. That's the biggest thing. First Nations communities have been hit with consultations forever. Biggest thing I hear from them a lot is they just wasted their time talking to somebody and they don't hear anything back. They don't see where that information has gone to. They don't see what that information was used for. Always tell everybody, if you're going to meet with one of my communities, send them an email afterwards so they know that you've heard what they said.

Send them the report when you're done so they can read it. know, have that follow through of what you're engaging on. That goes a long way. Because if you're just going in and talking to them, gonna eventually they're gonna stop talking to you. But if you follow through with what you've just went and seen them about, they're gonna want to talk to you again. But always tell every contractor, every consultant that I ever talk to that's working with my communities, follow through.

send them an email when you're done. Be like, hey, this meeting we just had, this is what I heard, is this correct? I even told my EMCR rep that, if you meet with one of my communities, send them an email when you're done. And be like, this is the topics we talked about, this is what our action items are, is this correct? Because then they feel that they were heard.

That would be my biggest thing. Yeah. Follow through. Yeah. And just at the very beginning of that too, I want to highlight something that it's been generations of not being listened to. That's great. So when you're, it's very easy to feel like you're not being listened to again. So it's something we have to be very aware of. We say indigenous engagement.

What do you want to experience when we show up and we say that we're coming in over. We're to come in and do indigenous engagement today. think it's about respect, right? Do your research, know the community you're coming to see. There's been many times where I've sat in room and the speaker starts talking, has no clue about the community. And then you're like, why are you wasting our time?

Right? If you're going to come and talk to your community and you start talking about something that can only happen in a big city, you're wasting that community's time. Do your research of who you're talking to, what community you're talking to before you arrive to the community. Yeah. Yeah. That's the biggest thing is do your research. Yeah. And, you know, it leans into my next question, like somebody that's coming in new.

Where should they start? Like what should be something when they come into working with the First Nation for the first time? Where should they begin that journey? Any thoughts? You know, pick up the phone, ask the question, even if it's a receptionist. Most of the receptionists in a community is a community member. Most of like even at our offices, every single one of our receptionists is a community member.

Pick up the phone and ask the question. Hey, I want to do some work with the community. What should I do? And a lot of the communities like, you know, like TNG has, they have like, they're working with Tŝilhqot’in Like it's an actual book that's published, right? Read it. It tells you everything you need to know, right? And a lot of communities have that. Look on their website, you know what I mean? Like do your research about the community and then ask the question.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. it shows up. it's, for me, my experience, I came to this region the first time. I had never been here before, to be honest, when I got the call. I had to look up Williams Lake on the map. I knew it was somewhere in BC, but I wasn't quite sure where. And now it's my second home. It's kind of funny, like last night, Steph, mentioned her. She's like, welcome home.

Exactly. Right? And it is, it truly is. I recognize just as many people here as I do in my home community. But one of the things that during the 2017 fires, which is when I started working in this region, I was experiencing something when I was working out, particularly in the Jocotin region, in the Silke-Teen area, right? It was like, what's going on here? Why is this happening? And I couldn't understand why some of these things. And it was a...

There was a... There was was a... a defiance, there was an anger, there was a resentment, there was all sorts of these bad emotions that were popping out. And in certain settings. And this is prior to a lot of things that you've been mentioning today that we've moved and come forward on. After the fires, I was having a conversation with someone over dinner, and they go...

Have you ever heard of the Chilcotin War? I hadn't. And once I learned about it, I was like, this is exactly what has caused all of this. it's here today. know, over 100 years ago. know, when you go when you go into peace talks and then you get arrested and hung. Yeah.

you expect right it's the same thing right you go to the government table to have a conversation and then they've pulled a rug out from underneath you. Same things that happen to this day right so I understand where they're coming from and you know I think I think there's been a lot of improvement especially from our local authorities here to you to change a lot of that outcome from 2017. And there was a lot of things that happened 2017 that I know as long as I'm sitting in

chair will never happen in the Tŝilhqot’in ever again. But we can't change the past where we can help right to future. Yeah, right. And yeah, there's it truly has been and I agree with you, I'm sitting in the same chair. I don't want to do some of the things that we had to have happen in 17. And we don't have to have them happen anymore. The things have been there's been, you know, relationships work, work done, all sorts of things. Just so much. On this note, I want to add

to the audience that, particularly Canadian audience, our education that we received was not accurate. It omitted significant details that lose perspective for us. And as I've learned over the years, it's changed my view completely. And I came from a very white town and I would say a racist sort of background and that's the way it was in those days.

And I think, you know, if we want to have conversations and relationships with Indigenous people, we owe it to ourselves to take the time to learn the proper things, the proper things that we have not been told over the years. And that's up to us as individuals. It's not up to Indigenous people to do that for us. So we have to put that work in. The information is out there. So for the audience, please.

take time to listen to a judge's perspective because it will change your perspective of what everything that we've been missed out on and not learned. show up. Show up. You know what I mean? If there's a powwow going on, show up. Yeah. Join in. Yeah.

You know, there was a, I was listening to Anthony, Anthony Moore, you've met Anthony. And we were in Penticton, not this year, but last year. And one of the questions was like about engagement, right? And he said, if it's on the calendar of your local First Nations, that means it's open for everybody. If it's a powwow, it's open for everybody. Come and learn.

Yeah. And I thought, you know what, I don't think I've ever gone to one of our events out here in this local where it was a closed event unless it was like a funeral or something. But all the other events, it's open for everybody. Come and learn. Yeah. You know, you're not you're you're how are you going to learn if you're just sitting back watching? Go get in there. Yeah. Learn it. Right. Ask your local community. Hey, can I join in? They're going to say yes. Yeah. Right. Because the more education you have about their community is better for them.

Yeah, yeah. And I'll just say like I've had that I've been welcomed into different events and you have to go in with some energy. I know that because it's going to be a fun time and a good time. You're going to meet lots of people and you know all ages I've had.

bundle of time with kids, just as fun hanging out with the kids. But it's one of the most welcoming environments I've ever been in. The food's always good. ⁓ my god. Can't say enough about that. I shouldn't say that. That good. I was too aggressive. I'm sorry, but I don't want to share that secret. Yeah, that's so true. All right, we're at the end here and I've got three quick questions for you, Rob, as we finish up.

So what is one book, documentary or resource that you would recommend for those learning about crisis, emergency management or firefighting for example? A few years ago, TNG released the report after 2017 fires, the fires awaken us report. If you want to learn about First Nations emergencies, that is a very good read. We've also came up with the COVID report.

and the landslide report. Those are very good reads from a First Nations perspective and written by First Nations member and two doctors or two.

whatever they are from Victoria. Very, very well done and very educational. Yeah, and those are great events. ⁓ I was part of those events in this region and in different roles with the municipal governments. But you will learn something, I can tell you, no matter where you live from any of those reports.

What advice would you offer information officers or communicators managing crisis or emergencies that would help them to perform their job more effectively? Do your research. Like I said, know the area you're going to help. think I brought it up when we were in Penticton doing that training and it was about Vernon.

But there was no maps of Vernon. There was nothing about Vernon. And we're trying to do a scenario in Vernon. And I'm like, I don't know Vernon. How am I supposed to help support Vernon when I don't know what we're talking about? And I think that's the biggest thing is if you're going to go out and support a community, learn about the community. It only takes five minutes to get you an idea of where you're going and what you're looking at.

and be kind. Right. Everybody you're talking to is going through the same shit that you're going through. Yeah. Right. And if you're going and you're helping support another community, that person that you're talking to that might be sitting at the director's table or sitting at the planning or sitting at logistics, could be their family being evacuated. You know, like, have some passion. Let's put human, our human side back into the work we do and not be so much robots. Yeah. Like I think

that's a big thing that's missed in society today is the human part and the passion. I just feel like after COVID we lost all that. know everybody started working from home and being those hermits and we lost the human touch to what we used to be. And then we all need to get back to that. Don't be scared to show your emotions in the room.

kind of getting more of a grin as I go because I remember you leave at one time and you go see this summer and you go, I don't want to see you guys for the weekend. out my face. All of a the alert went on. I know it was so funny. So it was like you were you were like get out of my face and then the alert came back. I guess we got to go back to work.

So really important question as the next one. How do you maintain your mental well-being during the most intense moments of response? You know, you got to take it with a grain of salt. know, there's no point in getting mad. There's no point in getting upset. You know, we're all human.

Sometimes we forget, but at the end of the day, we're all human. Doesn't matter the color of your skin, doesn't matter what, we all bleed the same color and we all have the same heart. Right? And I think sometimes we tend to forget that. Right? And, you know, at the end of the day, we all believe in a higher above and we all believe that there's something below.

So let's all get together and just be happy and be happy that we're able to do this work and support people. And let's, like I said, let's be human and use our heart. We do sometimes it's a cold job we have to do, but if we use our heart and we think about what our actions will be, and like you said,

Seven generations ahead or even one generation ahead. Maybe not just in the moment, right? Can really change your aspect of how you're going to do your job. Yeah, right. Yeah. And sometimes just think about it's like, what would I do if that was my family being evacuated? Or, you know, would I want them sleeping in tents? Yeah. You know, would I want to send them to a shithole hotel or you know what mean? Like, let's start using our hearts when we're talking about we're we're uplifting somebody from their

Yeah, you know, it was like that why I got so heated in the EOC this summer about the highway being open Yeah, right. It's like we just uplifted a whole fat like fat multiple families from their homes Telling them that it's not safe yet. We're gonna allow Visitors into their space. Well, we just kicked them out of their space, you know, that's where I get passionate about it's like

That's double standard, right? So we can't be that way. Let's think about it before we do it and let's use this thing we call heart. Yeah. And that's something, dude, you brought that so much into the EOC this summer. was, and you even brought that as like you, I remember a few different times just saying, I'm really thankful to be working here with all of you. You care. You could tell everybody, all of us cared, right? And you highlighted that for us. And that's important, I think, to bring that to really

care. It's something that we sometimes in the rush of it and in that madness that's going on. Maybe you just gotta ground yourself. You do. Right? And I think sometimes we get so in the go, go, go, we forget to ground ourselves. Right? And you know, you guys had the squash. Yeah. Right? And that kept us pretty grounded for the most part. You know what I mean? You gotta, you gotta be humorous. You gotta, you know, ground yourself. You gotta, you know, like I said, gotta stop being robots. Yeah. Right?

like we're humans. Let's be it. Corgette the squash. She had a name. I didn't know that. I've never seen a squash get sanitized so many times in my life. I hope nobody ate that thing.

Well, look, thanks for joining me, Rob. It's been great, And really appreciate having you on the wildfires, floods and chaos communications podcast, man. It's awesome. Awesome. Thanks a lot.

Tim Conrad (timsbits) (1:05:46)
Resilience is something I've always admired. I see that in the Tŝilhqot’in people, in how they have lived through repeated disasters, and in my colleague Rob. I was fortunate to finally get the opportunity to work at the Emergency Operations Centre with Rob last summer during a rather spicy September. He was a critical member of the Courgette team, helping with nearly every aspect of the Regional Operations Centre and greatly broadening our understanding of Indigenous and First Nations ways.

Thanks again for joining me for the episode, Rob.

at www.communicationspodcast.com where you'll see this episode on video in the coming weeks. And you'll see it also on our Butterfly Effect Communications YouTube channel. We have video and audio podcast playlists over there for you to subscribe to so you don't miss an episode, however you'd like to get it.

Tim Conrad (timsbits) (1:06:37)
The Wildfires Floods and Chaos Communications podcast is a production of Butterfly Effect Communications, copyright 2026.

Tim Conrad (timsbits) (1:06:44)
Mussi goodbye, hear me later.