When the Fire Wouldn’t Sleep: September’s Extreme Wildfire Behaviour and the Rise of First Nations Leadership with Fire Chief Paul McCarthy

00;00;02;21 - 00;00;29;02
Paul McCarthy
Looking back, I was able to work in I had my fingers in emergency management, some type of urgency management for. This is my 34th year in fire service in 2010, 2000 and 2008, 2010. I can't remember the time First Nations were evacuated and there was there was no consultation. We wouldn't have First Nations leadership in the emergency operations.

00;00;29;02 - 00;00;53;04
Paul McCarthy
And I worked at we'd have at that time it was called Inac, and they'd come in and speak on behalf of the nations. And I just I remember thinking, this is this is very strange. And there was there was elders who wouldn't evacuate this one community. And Inac was insistent that we sent a team with BC Wildfire and Police to evacuate these elders.

00;00;53;06 - 00;01;03;02
Paul McCarthy
And I remember thinking to myself, well, if they don't want to go, we can't legally make them.

00;01;03;04 - 00;01;08;29
Tim Conrad
We acknowledge and respect the indigenous people on whose ancestral territories we work and play, whether the land is

00;01;09;01 - 00;01;17;00
Tim Conrad
unceded or ceded. Your relationship with this land and your culture is one we admire. Wherever we are, we are committed to truth and reconciliation

00;01;17;03 - 00;01;17;29
Tim Conrad
through regular,

00;01;17;29 - 00;01;18;18
Tim Conrad
meaningful

00;01;18;20 - 00;01;20;22
Tim Conrad
actions.

00;01;20;24 - 00;01;53;00
Tim Conrad
Fire Chief Paul McCarthy leads a volunteer based rural fire service with a wide range of hazards, which include an upstream mine, highway log home operation, floods and wildfires. In 2017, the area faced a direct hit from some of the 272 wildfires which impacted the region. Chief McCarthy is a non-Indigenous member of the FN leadership, and he serves in dual roles as the emergency program coordinator of both the Williams Lake First Nation and he's the fire chief at the 150 Mile Fire Department.

00;01;53;04 - 00;02;16;23
Tim Conrad
Both are on the eastern edges of the city of Williams Lake in British Columbia, where you will find all fire departments are volunteer based. He has served in various roles during emergency operations with partners in interior British Columbia during wildfires, floods and landslides where we worked recently. And luckily I got to sit down with him in February 2026 and have this conversation.

00;02;16;25 - 00;02;28;01
Tim Conrad
Welcome to the wildfires, Floods and Chaos Communications podcast. I'm your host, Tim Conrad, and my guest for this episode is Fire Chief Paul McCarthy. He begins by telling us about his role.

00;02;28;04 - 00;02;51;23
Paul McCarthy
I'm the Williams Lake First Nations emergency program coordinator. I've been with WFM for about two and a half years now. And Williams Lake First Nation is absolutely. It's a joy coming to work every day. It's one of the most progressive, forward thinking organizations I've ever been a part of. And coming to work is basically, it sounds cheesy, but it's almost a gift.

00;02;51;26 - 00;02;58;04
Tim Conrad
looking back over the last few years, tell us which emergencies have affected Williams Lake First Nation.

00;02;58;05 - 00;03;31;08
Paul McCarthy
Prior to me, starting with Williams Lake First Nation, you can go back to really like the Mount Holly breach was on. It will in Williams Lake traditional territory and that affected Williams Lake First Nation greatly. The 2017 wildfires. You know the landscape here changed after that. And we're still experiencing the the challenges from that. Then the 2020 landslide are flooding and landslides that have happened with the big atmospheric river preset last year in traditional territory.

00;03;31;09 - 00;03;39;10
Paul McCarthy
Again, we had the River landslide, which blocked the river for a number of days. A few smaller events.

00;03;39;16 - 00;03;52;29
Paul McCarthy
A couple of heat wave events. He activated cooling center for some events close to home. One of our ears was not significantly impacted, but impacted by the Williams River Valley Fire in 2024.

00;03;53;01 - 00;03;54;18
Paul McCarthy
And things of that nature.

00;03;54;23 - 00;03;55;03
Tim Conrad
Yeah,

00;03;55;06 - 00;03;56;09
Tim Conrad
so quite a mix, right?

00;03;56;17 - 00;03;57;11
Paul McCarthy
Absolutely.

00;03;57;13 - 00;04;14;17
Tim Conrad
Lots of variety there. And so and it's yeah, it certainly has been challenging for this nation. I've worked in this area a lot and the damage is everywhere. Like as I was walking in this building, you can see it all around you. Like it's very, very obvious. So.

00;04;14;19 - 00;04;21;00
Tim Conrad
So what's that impact been like on operations and how has that adjustment been made.

00;04;21;02 - 00;04;22;15
Speaker 3
I would say.

00;04;22;18 - 00;04;49;15
Paul McCarthy
You know, just even recently, anytime there's a small fire or something that looks like a fire, the community gets really activated or agitated or worried about fire. You know, you see a fire down on the hay fields or even small little rank one ranked two fires in the area. People are really, really reactive to that. The building back from the flooding in 2020, that's been an ongoing process.

00;04;49;16 - 00;05;16;23
Paul McCarthy
The challenges with dealing with disaster, financial assistance, the two levels of government and the rules around that have been a challenge prior to me getting here, and we're still dealing with that today. The challenge is under the new Emergency Disaster Management Act in the 2024 landslides. That was a really good learning experience for us. And so yeah, it's it's an interesting challenge.

00;05;16;23 - 00;05;25;28
Paul McCarthy
You've seen wealth and adapt. And, you know, I've been here for two and a half years and we've actually been able to grow our team to support the community. Yeah,

00;05;25;28 - 00;05;31;22
Tim Conrad
what do you think? Like, can you pop out some of the lessons since you've arrived that you've.

00;05;31;24 - 00;05;43;21
Paul McCarthy
The lesson since I've arrived, really like when I first started, I hit the ground running. I was really jazzed to be here. Really excited to serve the community and get out and just learn from people. And

00;05;43;24 - 00;05;59;08
Paul McCarthy
if I was going to bet on a population to survive an apocalypse, I would bet on a First Nations community. Hands down, the sense of community, the sense of community strength and looking after one another has been you just really see it day to day, being a First Nations community.

00;05;59;09 - 00;06;22;00
Paul McCarthy
Yeah, there's a word which really one of the one of the Elders who she's on chief council, and we brought that word forward. And that's the spirit of collaboration, the spirit of helping each other. That is something that's really guided the entire program since we've been here, you know, and the desire to be inclusive and not just work out.

00;06;22;01 - 00;06;27;05
Paul McCarthy
Look, after working, work on looking after Williams Lake First Nation, but the region

00;06;27;05 - 00;06;33;22
Paul McCarthy
and everyone benefits from that, that lens of collaboration and inclusivity.

00;06;33;23 - 00;06;46;10
Tim Conrad
I certainly see that in the work that I do in this area that that we call them welfare. WFM will be at the table, right. Like it's there. They're they're part of the community in every way possible. So

00;06;46;12 - 00;06;53;23
Tim Conrad
so we spent time together in the emergency operations center last summer. Yes. And so let's chat a little bit about that experience.

00;06;53;26 - 00;07;18;25
Tim Conrad
So for the audience, the Cariboo Regional District had a late wildfire season kick. They had some earlier too. But and it got pretty spicy in September and threatened multiple communities. And this was September 2025. So it resulted in some of the largest evacuations that they've had in this region in years and was particularly threatening to to several First Nations, including WLS.

00;07;18;25 - 00;07;24;28
Tim Conrad
And here Williams Lake First Nation was under threat as well. So tell us a bit about your experience there.

00;07;25;00 - 00;07;26;00
Tim Conrad


00;07;26;02 - 00;07;27;28
Speaker 3
I was lucky enough to get a.

00;07;28;01 - 00;07;48;12
Paul McCarthy
Request to come in and support our friends in the Cariboo Regional District Emergency Operations Center, and luckily, I got dropped into the operations section and just really worked on supporting the boots on the ground in the evacuation efforts. You know, standing at the evacuation branch coordinator, working and supporting the emergency support services team that was originally in Williams Lake.

00;07;48;12 - 00;08;08;21
Paul McCarthy
And then, of course, there was no not enough capacity hotel wise and 100 Mile or Williams Lake. So a lot of the neighboring communities got sent to either Prince George or Kamloops and supporting that. And then just, you know, working with BC wildfire and being part of the team with the regional district. And it's funny, I called it going up to the big leagues.

00;08;08;27 - 00;08;20;04
Paul McCarthy
The regional district COC with the Cariboo Regional District has been around for a long time. They really are dialed in. And it was it was kind of a privilege to go and sit in that room and support them when we could.

00;08;20;09 - 00;08;28;05
Tim Conrad
Yeah, yeah, I know it was good having you there. And I mean, you're you're moderately good at your job, and we asked for you to come back again.

00;08;28;06 - 00;08;29;17
Paul McCarthy
Fair to Midland. I like to call it.

00;08;29;18 - 00;08;30;02
Tim Conrad
Yeah yeah.

00;08;30;04 - 00;08;34;12
Paul McCarthy
Yeah yeah yeah yeah. There's always room for improvement.

00;08;34;19 - 00;08;38;28
Tim Conrad
Always room for improvement. Especially if you're named Paul. Yes.

00;08;39;01 - 00;08;41;16
Paul McCarthy
That guy's.

00;08;41;19 - 00;08;47;02
Tim Conrad
We had lots of fun when we could to keep things going. So. But

00;08;47;04 - 00;08;49;27
Tim Conrad
what surprised you this, this past summer?

00;08;50;01 - 00;08;50;29
Tim Conrad


00;08;51;02 - 00;09;25;28
Paul McCarthy
Well, the fire behavior, for one. We had incident commanders. We do briefings, and we're like, okay, we seem to be okay for the next couple of days. And we'd breathe a little bit and exhale. On the next morning, we'd be getting calls for recommendations for evacuation orders. And the incident commander, you could tell on the team's call they were not they were surprised, I don't want to say rattled, but they were definitely surprised, almost shocked that the fires were doing what they were doing overnight and moving kilometers and causing risks and challenges.

00;09;26;00 - 00;09;41;06
Paul McCarthy
That was a little bit disconcerting to sit in that and think, well, it's going to be a bread and butter plain Jane wildfire. And no, it's running 17km at 10:00 in the evening, which is really unheard of. Yeah, yeah,

00;09;41;11 - 00;09;41;17
Paul McCarthy
yeah.

00;09;41;18 - 00;09;50;13
Tim Conrad
And particularly like we were we you know, if you want to say it was calm, calm weather conditions on some of those nights, you know, as far as overall weather.

00;09;50;14 - 00;10;05;05
Paul McCarthy
Yeah. The forecasts were going to be good. We're going to see precipitation and then things would just change. Yeah. It was like almost like somebody said you know like the keyword. And you know, Murphy's Law showed up and poke the bear, so to speak. Yeah.

00;10;05;08 - 00;10;11;27
Tim Conrad
And for anybody that doesn't know, the keyword will hopefully safe saying this in the middle of winter here. Right.

00;10;11;29 - 00;10;13;02
Paul McCarthy
I'm not I'm not going to.

00;10;13;05 - 00;10;19;13
Tim Conrad
It's the, the word that keeps everybody from saying anything. So since

00;10;19;19 - 00;10;19;24
Tim Conrad
I.

00;10;19;24 - 00;10;20;01
Paul McCarthy
Doesn't.

00;10;20;01 - 00;10;20;21
Tim Conrad
Want to sell it, I

00;10;20;24 - 00;10;21;11
Tim Conrad
won't say it.

00;10;21;15 - 00;10;28;21
Paul McCarthy
I will spell it. Will you? I can try to sell it. Q I e t

00;10;28;24 - 00;10;29;26
Paul McCarthy
okay.

00;10;29;28 - 00;10;30;15
Tim Conrad
All right.

00;10;30;16 - 00;10;31;06
Paul McCarthy
Good. I'm not going.

00;10;31;06 - 00;10;32;15
Tim Conrad
To see it. All right.

00;10;32;18 - 00;10;35;17
Tim Conrad
And so where did you see the biggest challenges?

00;10;35;20 - 00;11;04;27
Paul McCarthy
I think there was some assumptions based on past events going from learnings from 2017. You know roads would be closed and roads couldn't be closed. There's the challenges with that. And I think challenges with even expenditure authorization requests. We were assuming that for basically we're extending an evacuation order area. And yeah okay. Well this this first approval went through no problem.

00;11;04;27 - 00;11;20;09
Paul McCarthy
And we're waiting hours at times for this. Basically a cookie cutter control v EAF request. And it was getting stopped at government was really, really interesting.

00;11;20;11 - 00;11;53;26
Paul McCarthy
Some of the challenges with such a distant remote community were challenged. You know, coming in with that. And I see this a lot. You can't treat a lake. The lake, a Ponzi lake. The same as you would treat a Surrey or a Chilliwack or a Kelowna. That was a real challenge. The inability for provincial levels of government to see that difference and to be able to adapt.

00;11;53;28 - 00;12;14;07
Paul McCarthy
There was a little bit of silos, you know, agencies and government departments got stuck in their own silos, and that would have been frustrating. It was frustrating working with the regional district, trying to manage that. Yeah, the team building was great. The EOC staff was great. It was the policy that really got got we got stuck in that.

00;12;14;08 - 00;12;15;08
Paul McCarthy
Yeah.

00;12;15;10 - 00;12;44;12
Tim Conrad
Yeah, it's certainly it's always a challenging area. And as things change it changes. Sometimes the policy or the process that we go through and then it makes it harder and instead of easier. So I think it's an important message to get out there that we need to involve people that are ultimately on the ground making these decisions and part of these operations for other levels of governments to involve people when they're when they're building these things out.

00;12;44;12 - 00;12;47;17
Tim Conrad
So to make sure there is an improvement there.

00;12;47;19 - 00;13;01;10
Tim Conrad
you know what? What else though, like when you think about this wasn't your first disaster. It wasn't your first run around the block. But what should people know when they walk into their first disaster?

00;13;01;12 - 00;13;02;15
Paul McCarthy
Well,

00;13;02;17 - 00;13;24;17
Paul McCarthy
it's going to be every every call is different. Every every EEC activation is different. You've got time. Right? It's that's what I would suggest. Like you don't have to make you have to make decisions in a timely fashion. But there's checklists and there's a process to follow. And you have more time than you think you'll have.

00;13;24;18 - 00;13;46;25
Paul McCarthy
And I don't like using Winston Churchill as an example, because kind of was historically not the greatest person. But making a decision is better than waiting around for the perfect decision. Making a good decision is okay. Making a decision that's the perfect decision by committee that's going to take three days is not okay, and it's going to change.

00;13;46;27 - 00;13;54;24
Paul McCarthy
You make a decision and you're going to have to pivot. Something's always going to happen. There's incidents within incidents within incidents. And that's a guaranteed you can bet on that.

00;13;54;24 - 00;14;21;17
Speaker 1
My usual stop to say hello. Why? Why? Ticket. I see you in its white white cup to listeners and viewers in the country of Croatia and over in Duncan, British Columbia. Down in Orem, Utah. Over in Liverpool, England. Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam. And Warsaw, Poland. I keep saying it. Poland. I'm just going to stick with that. It's poisoned from now on.

00;14;21;20 - 00;14;41;02
Speaker 1
Thank you for finding us. And please, if you can share with just one person, it's the Canadian way. We are on all the podcast platforms including antenna, pod, Spotify and iHeart radio. Find us everywhere at communications podcast. Now back to chief McCarthy.

00;14;41;04 - 00;15;01;29
Tim Conrad
This summer I was in the planning to, you know planning unit to other advanced planning or planning chief. And we were back and forth constantly like literally every couple of minutes, I think, especially when things were really spicy. And I think that's where that really came across because we it wasn't just you and I, but there's others in the room, the director and so on.

00;15;02;01 - 00;15;08;24
Tim Conrad
We're getting together and and it's like, okay, changed. The situation has changed. What's our now? What's our plan. Right.

00;15;08;28 - 00;15;10;04
Paul McCarthy
There's another wrinkle.

00;15;10;06 - 00;15;13;26
Tim Conrad
Another wrinkle. Exactly. Right. So and and it's a it's about

00;15;13;28 - 00;15;15;19
Tim Conrad
quickly getting together I can remember

00;15;15;23 - 00;15;18;16
Tim Conrad
I can't remember the particular because everything just kind of fogs together after.

00;15;18;16 - 00;15;19;22
Speaker 3
A while. But I remember.

00;15;19;23 - 00;15;33;01
Tim Conrad
Us getting together. We made a decision. We broke. And then I think it was like 5 or 10 minutes later, everything, just everything that we had planned, gone, changed again and we had to. It was like, well, that was that was quick.

00;15;33;06 - 00;15;33;28
Paul McCarthy
Yeah.

00;15;34;01 - 00;15;51;29
Paul McCarthy
And keeping in mind with the regional district being such a big area and everything was focused in the West, there's fires in the east too. Yeah. And I was like, well, we should maybe talk to somebody about the ones on the other side of the regional district, because we don't know what's going on there, because all the attention was focused on the big event and we dodged a few bullets.

00;15;51;29 - 00;16;09;14
Tim Conrad
it was absolutely. I remember us sitting there when we would have, we would have those lulls. And I say those lulls come in the EOC. Funnily enough, they come when you've got that big moment has happened and there's a lull right after it. Yeah. While you're the preps getting done, everything's getting ready.

00;16;09;14 - 00;16;36;22
Tim Conrad
And for us there in the leadership roles, there's there's a moment there where we can actually have a conversation. And I remember we would get together around the map a lot and start to look and and theorize as to what we were up against. And I remember that looking at that West versus east and looking at those, those sections and going away, if we if this weather comes over here, we're going to see a bit of a different situation here.

00;16;36;22 - 00;16;37;08
Tim Conrad
So

00;16;37;15 - 00;16;37;22
Tim Conrad
yeah.

00;16;37;23 - 00;16;54;01
Paul McCarthy
And where we're going to put all the limited resources thinking it's September right. We got really lucky with BC wildfire having resources in the province. If this was an August event it would be a completely different event. But if you had another event in the province, it would change the landscape completely overnight. Not even overnight.

00;16;54;06 - 00;17;04;09
Tim Conrad
Yeah. Let's talk about that for a moment. I think I want to peel that one a little bit is that this was a very spicy September, after a really relatively calm summer in this region.

00;17;04;10 - 00;17;05;03
Paul McCarthy
Eerily calm.

00;17;05;04 - 00;17;25;12
Tim Conrad
Yeah. And it meant that that, you know, kind of thought by towards the end of August, we can start to say, oh, you know, that time off that we thought maybe you could maybe take you can take it. Right. Like you're proven time off for people and you're getting a little bit more relaxed. And then all hell broke loose really fast to.

00;17;25;18 - 00;17;27;07
Paul McCarthy
Write as the September long weekend.

00;17;27;08 - 00;17;45;22
Tim Conrad
Yeah, yeah, it was immediate because I was I thought I was done, I was putting my stuff away and got a call and and was like, yeah, we might need you like tomorrow if you can start packing immediately. And I was like serious. And it did, it did shift that quick. And I was indeed on the road. The next morning.

00;17;45;22 - 00;17;46;01
Tim Conrad
So,

00;17;46;05 - 00;17;54;04
Tim Conrad
you know, can you talk a little bit about that effect as an overall when we have because that is it. That was this last year was a very unique season in that way.

00;17;54;09 - 00;18;12;20
Paul McCarthy
It was really interesting because we were on a conference call before the long weekend and and the outlook wasn't grim, wasn't dire. It was like, but hey, like, you know, it's a long weekend, but if something comes up, please pick your phone up for BC wildfire. And I was like, yeah, okay, cool. It doesn't sound terrible, but they were expecting, you know, precipitation levels to kind of come back overnight.

00;18;12;20 - 00;18;29;23
Paul McCarthy
And I'm like, oh, that's really good news. You know, maybe I'll put my phone on vibrate, you know, won't have it on the ringer. And I got a text from the regional district and I said, yeah, I'm around, I'm totally willing to help out because they had time off approved, and I think maybe a wedding or two silly people getting married.

00;18;29;26 - 00;18;42;12
Paul McCarthy
And yeah, we came in and I was like, I expected it to have a couple of flash ups and then be like, we're calm after this. And then the next thing you know, we're having high level operational evacuation plans and

00;18;42;15 - 00;18;48;06
Paul McCarthy
if we're going to evacuate that area or we're going to do it in one shot, we're not going to do it over several days.

00;18;48;06 - 00;18;54;20
Paul McCarthy
And and next thing you know, we're sending 1500 plus people out of that. Out of the. Yeah,

00;18;54;22 - 00;18;57;11
Tim Conrad
the conditions in September were

00;18;57;14 - 00;19;13;28
Tim Conrad
I guess best way to put it. Like kind of that late spring condition almost is what I kind of sensed. It was dried out. We had the starting to get the the winds presence showing up, getting that overnight cooling. But it wasn't affecting fires at all really.

00;19;13;29 - 00;19;22;16
Tim Conrad
No. And so it was very, very odd, you know, like and then at the same time extremely dry, like very, very drought.

00;19;22;18 - 00;19;41;06
Paul McCarthy
And the precipitation kept disappearing. Yeah. Oh we're going to get precip tomorrow and it would be gone. And then it was like one of the fire weather experts is like, yeah, the big fire is eating all the clouds. And you're like, say what? Again? The big fire is eating all the clouds. Oh, this is great. Yeah, right. And thinking like it's September.

00;19;41;09 - 00;19;49;28
Paul McCarthy
Yeah. We should be like chilling here. Yeah. You know like it's the September will be after action review time. And we didn't do after action reviews until November. Yeah.

00;19;49;28 - 00;20;05;19
Tim Conrad
yeah. And just Uber challenging like the winds were were bad. You had a fire here on on the nation land that was so close to being much worse because of that wind. Right. Like it was just a howling wind that day

00;20;05;21 - 00;20;06;19
Tim Conrad
for. Yeah.

00;20;06;21 - 00;20;33;09
Paul McCarthy
So that was that was an interesting pivot. I got two days off out of the EOC because we had had a fire adjacent to Saint Joseph's Mission, and the winds picked up like I haven't seen a pickup. It was just perfect conditions. And we got once again very lucky with resources. We called for the right resources early and they were able to put a bomber line down because if they hadn't, I don't know where that fire would have

00;20;33;17 - 00;20;33;25
Paul McCarthy
stopped.

00;20;33;26 - 00;20;34;13
Paul McCarthy
Yeah.

00;20;34;20 - 00;20;42;00
Tim Conrad
Yeah, I fully agree because like, you were on your way there and you got me to run you a weather. Yeah. And I didn't have good things.

00;20;42;00 - 00;20;42;17
Paul McCarthy
Till, you.

00;20;42;19 - 00;21;02;04
Tim Conrad
Know, it was, it was pretty brutal. And it. Yeah, when I got out I was able to get out here on, on scene that night and yeah, it was, it was spooky. I got to say, when I came around the corner, I did not like what I saw. And because the cloud was just the smoke off of the, the, the fire was just straight.

00;21;02;07 - 00;21;04;28
Tim Conrad
It was going that was falling right along the edge of the field, right down.

00;21;05;02 - 00;21;06;02
Paul McCarthy
Right up the valley, just.

00;21;06;02 - 00;21;18;08
Tim Conrad
Like right up the valley. And you just don't want to see that when you're pulling into a fire at that. You know, I think I got here around seven or something like that. So yeah, it was evening and it should have been not doing that at all.

00;21;18;11 - 00;21;32;07
Paul McCarthy
Oh, we had three barns and we showed up on scene. And the one of the property groups, I don't know if it was a property rep or a worker for the property rep was like, you've got to save that barn. I was like, we're not stopping it at that barn. We're going to try to save the other two.

00;21;32;08 - 00;21;40;13
Paul McCarthy
That barns gone. And the look on his face was like, it's the fire is not there yet. But it was going. Yeah. And was the conditions were just perfect.

00;21;40;18 - 00;21;41;06
Paul McCarthy
Yeah. Yeah.

00;21;41;07 - 00;21;58;01
Tim Conrad
Yeah, they really were. That day was like because we I remember us talking about it that morning. It was like we can't have a fire today. Yeah. Through this whole section. And what do we get. We got one up just north of the city and then this one within. I think they were within an hour of each

00;21;58;04 - 00;21;58;23
Tim Conrad
other.

00;21;58;26 - 00;21;59;24
Tim Conrad
Right? Yeah.

00;21;59;24 - 00;22;05;21
Paul McCarthy
So. So it's our fault the bear. So almost as bad as seeing the keyword it was.

00;22;05;24 - 00;22;24;28
Tim Conrad
Yeah. We kind of did pay for that one. I think we, we did confide in each other standing in the black then. So yeah. So there's been some awesome advances in First Nations emergency management in recent years and the fire service. So can you highlight some that you've been part of and those that you admire?

00;22;24;28 - 00;22;51;09
Paul McCarthy
Looking back, I was able to work in I had my fingers in emergency management, some type of urgency management for. This is my 34th year in fire service in 2010, 2000 and 2008, 2010. I can't remember the time First Nations were evacuated and there was there was no consultation. We wouldn't have First Nations leadership in the emergency operations.

00;22;51;09 - 00;23;15;13
Paul McCarthy
And I worked at we'd have at that time it was called Inac, and they'd come in and speak on behalf of the nations. And I just I remember thinking, this is this is very strange. And there was there was elders who wouldn't evacuate this one community. And Inac was insistent that we sent a team with BC Wildfire and Police to evacuate these elders.

00;23;15;15 - 00;23;24;27
Paul McCarthy
And I remember thinking to myself, well, if they don't want to go, we can't legally make them. And how do we know what's best?

00;23;24;29 - 00;23;58;05
Paul McCarthy
And lo and behold, sent a convoy out there and they were politely told to turn around and go back where they came from. They had everything they needed, and the community was kind of isolated and doing its own thing, trying to work on traditional foods and cultural supports, non-existent at that time, and then moving into 2017, where it had less of a say in emergency operations center, more of an incident commander role, engaging with then and once again, that connection was just missing.

00;23;58;08 - 00;24;20;21
Paul McCarthy
It was better, but it wasn't great. And I think from an emergency support services perspective, there was a lot of really big challenges with how long people were out, the lack of support for First Nations. And now you turn, turn around and you get, you know what, my role before here, like there's agreements, there's an emergency, disaster and management Act that has a duty to consult.

00;24;20;27 - 00;24;42;23
Paul McCarthy
First Nations are now at the table. And part of that decision making peace. It's not just, well, it will fly the helicopter over and be like, well, you're on your own letter, Buck. Hopefully somebody from from the feds calls you. The landslide was a really good example of collaboration. I think a really incredible time was having a fence.

00;24;42;24 - 00;24;57;00
Paul McCarthy
We had numerous WFM staff members working for the Cariboo Regional Districts event, you know, and supporting not only other First Nations, but everyone by that. Yeah. So that was really refreshing to see in two decades.

00;24;57;00 - 00;25;22;01
Tim Conrad
And it's you know, I talked a lot about it. It's it's come a very long way, very fast. And to have that representation in the EOS is it just means so much. Right. Like it's just so if for, for all of us that have been there, we've said it's just been an incredible experience because there's so much extra knowledge being added in that we did not have and now we have it.

00;25;22;01 - 00;25;48;10
Paul McCarthy
So absolutely. And I think looking back 17, if that knowledge was in the room, the responses would have been different. Yeah, the outcomes could have potentially been different. Yeah. And you know, there's been huge pivots across all government agencies now recognizing that and moving forward. And like goes back to that spirit canoe. Cantwell. Yeah. Which is you know wholeheartedly what I believe we have to focus on.

00;25;48;10 - 00;25;56;11
Tim Conrad
So the fire service is always shifting. What are things on the horizon for the audience to be aware of?

00;25;56;16 - 00;26;22;08
Paul McCarthy
Oh. Fire service meaning response and response lens. Well, my other role the other hat I where I'm the fire chief for 150 mile house. I think the preventative side has got to get better. You know fire smart wasn't a thing in 2000, and I think it was 2008. It was red rock, green rock. You know, if the house was was saved.

00;26;22;12 - 00;26;45;29
Paul McCarthy
They'd spray a red or green rock and put it at the driveway. And then it was red rock for not going down. And now it's, you know, there's wildfire protection zones, community wildfire resilience plans, there's fire smart technicians, there's fire smart coordinators on on the landscape. There's the ability to to have situational awareness. Now there's, you know, structure protection units.

00;26;45;29 - 00;27;19;25
Paul McCarthy
You looked at what we had out west, you know, structure fire departments here, there and everywhere putting sprinkler protection on units 2017. That was just the start of that. 2010 wasn't really there. 2003 I had the chance to be boots on the ground in 2003, in Kelowna. So I really had the lens where you've seen it change. You know, in 2017, they started using drones for night flooding and checking out for hotspots and really engaging structure firefighters with that situational awareness and sharing incident action plans.

00;27;19;25 - 00;27;42;25
Paul McCarthy
And you've seen that evolve now where you've got the engine Boss course for structural firefighters to be involved in that structure. Fire wild urban interface kind of lens. Yeah. And you know, I, you know, the River Valley was a really good example of that. The Williams Lake River Valley Fire in 2024. Once again, resource rich. They had bombers on that right away.

00;27;42;26 - 00;28;06;25
Paul McCarthy
You had office of the Fire Commissioner sent other departments into Williams Lake. Our department was there. And just the ability to expand and really buy into that unified command. And that incident command model is definitely seen. That's bearing a lot of fruit. Yeah. And the technology, the drones, the thermal imaging cameras, the situational awareness, you can have even apps like windy.

00;28;06;27 - 00;28;13;16
Paul McCarthy
Yeah, the landscape has really changed. Knowledge is at your fingertips and knowledge becomes power.

00;28;13;19 - 00;28;35;27
Unknown
Mental well-being is something we all have a responsibility to ourselves to be aware of and to look for ways to improve through intentional actions, such as getting outside or seeking professional help. As a responder, consider taking mental health first aid, which has been very important for the work I do. Interacting with people during large emergencies from residents to responders.

00;28;35;27 - 00;28;50;17
Unknown
If you are an urgent need of help in Canada, dial or text 988. You deserve to be heard. They are there to listen. It is a safe spot to talk 24 hours a day, every day of the year.

00;28;50;19 - 00;28;53;20
Paul McCarthy
I think it actually sent you a video of the wind. Yeah, yeah yeah.

00;28;53;22 - 00;28;54;25
Tim Conrad
Yeah yeah.

00;28;54;25 - 00;28;56;26
Paul McCarthy
Yeah, it was great.

00;28;56;27 - 00;29;09;18
Tim Conrad
It was not. Yeah. Like that was what you did. And it was like when you first showed up on scene, it was like like, oh no, we're in. Yeah. This is, this is not a good situation.

00;29;09;18 - 00;29;12;19
Paul McCarthy
So the time.

00;29;12;22 - 00;29;14;07
Tim Conrad
Indeed indeed.

00;29;14;09 - 00;29;41;27
Tim Conrad
I would say that you and I did a pretty good job of keeping the EOC laughing a little bit this summer. Yeah, especially being that it was a it was honestly like it was probably for, you know, for those two weeks or three weeks, whatever it was, it was probably one of the more intense 2 to 3 weeks I've had in a few years because of the speed at which we were running in the just the complexity of everything.

00;29;42;00 - 00;29;56;05
Tim Conrad
And so, yeah, I did definitely ramp up the humor. You you were in there, there was others. But talk to me a little bit about it and what what your thoughts on how important humor is in those, those moments, not only in the EOC but in the fire service too.

00;29;56;08 - 00;29;58;10
Tim Conrad
So you can go down.

00;29;58;10 - 00;30;20;06
Paul McCarthy
You don't want to go down the dark, gloomy, dark humor road. You want to keep everything light. And we're working long hours. Yeah. And, you know, you think you're leaving at 4:00. And then the EOC director at one time said the keyword, and we were there until like 1130 that evening, keeping people just. Those are long days. It's a stuffy room.

00;30;20;08 - 00;30;41;17
Paul McCarthy
It's, you know, you don't know what's going to happen. Just kind of keep spirits light and get that energy up and and not what I've learned over the years is not to pick on people. I try to use self-deprecating humor, or I think one of the big fun ones was I had boost these boost mushroom packs, cortisol, mushrooms, all these things.

00;30;41;21 - 00;30;58;07
Paul McCarthy
Just stick them in your lip and you get an energy. So the big thing was, well, Paul's on mushrooms. Try some of Paul's mushrooms. And and we, you know, lean into that. I'm like do you want some mushrooms. And green apple boosts were going around like you know everyone was trying them and things things just things like that.

00;30;58;07 - 00;31;15;18
Paul McCarthy
Just keeping it light, you know. You know, finding nicknames for people, like somebody had last name Campbell. So she got turned into soupy, which I don't think she appreciated. But you can kind of read the room a little bit, too. Like you're not trying to single people out, you're just trying to make the situation less heavy. Yeah, right.

00;31;15;19 - 00;31;32;21
Paul McCarthy
So you can go home and, you know, you've kind of got that vent going. Same with the fire service. You know, when you get in a truck and you're on a way to a call and I'll say something like, hey, let's go make somebody bad day a little bit better. You know, we're not there to save the world and change it.

00;31;32;21 - 00;31;57;13
Paul McCarthy
Let's just even just showing up is enough. And there's this. Really? I've kind of taken this on. You can take it from an emergency operations perspective and a fire service perspective. You hear it? Well, it's not our emergency. And people can really get sour and crass and go down that dark road. And I can I say, yeah, it's not our emergency, it's our emergency response.

00;31;57;19 - 00;32;19;07
Paul McCarthy
And we have a duty to make it better for somebody else. We're here to just do our best job. And sometimes when there's lulls, you can laugh a little bit, you know, and 2017, we were there on the fire. Our firefighters were thought they were losing their own homes. We had four, four families, little new babies, and they're gone.

00;32;19;07 - 00;32;43;28
Paul McCarthy
Their babies are in Alberta and they're they're staying here. Yeah. And the crew was really good about keeping their spirits light and taking the time. And I remember I asked one guy said, how are you doing? And you know, he got that sarcastic, well, I'm great. I'm addicted to chew again. And I've got gangrene in my foot. But just the way he said it was hilarious and just lighten that entire mood and, you know, picked on leadership.

00;32;43;28 - 00;33;05;08
Paul McCarthy
And sometimes I was like, and, you know, he came up to me afterwards like, is this okay? I'm like, keep it up. You're keeping morale up. You know, making it fun for the crew and picking on the white shirts is the way to go. Yeah, right. And punch up. Don't punch down on anybody. And he did a really good job of holding, holding everyone up and and going into an see, it's a little bit different.

00;33;05;10 - 00;33;24;09
Paul McCarthy
Or you tell a story or you find something funny or, you know, like I think the regional district has a secret squirrel room. So that that became a joke unto itself, you know, or there's somebody who came in as like, better make sure you leave cheeses out. You know, if the cheeses weren't there for this individual, like you're going to have hell to pay.

00;33;24;10 - 00;33;34;13
Paul McCarthy
Like those are those are not your cheeses. Things like that really. Just keep that situation light. And then a couple of times just going for a walk around the block. Yeah. Right.

00;33;34;15 - 00;33;34;26
Tim Conrad
Yeah.

00;33;34;26 - 00;33;44;12
Tim Conrad
And it's yeah. Like we we were back and forth a lot, you know lots of opportunities wherever they were between the two of us to pop out a little humor.

00;33;44;15 - 00;33;45;04
Paul McCarthy
Absolutely.

00;33;45;11 - 00;33;50;23
Tim Conrad
And and you know, we sell self-deprecating. But we were definitely deprecating each other.

00;33;51;00 - 00;33;51;17
Paul McCarthy
Absolutely.

00;33;51;23 - 00;34;07;12
Paul McCarthy
And knowing who you can take it to you. Right. And that's a really big thing. Yeah. When you're going to pick on somebody in the right way. Yes. And definitely. And knowing when people are a little bit frazzled and not to pick on them too. Yeah. And it may be that time it's a cup full of Eminem's and a sprite.

00;34;07;14 - 00;34;08;11
Paul McCarthy
Yeah, right.

00;34;08;13 - 00;34;09;01
Tim Conrad
Yeah,

00;34;09;03 - 00;34;26;12
Tim Conrad
yeah. And I do find I like humor is it has its spot. But it's a very interesting thing in my time with iOS. And you've got this down and I watched you do it a bunch of times. It's like when that tension is just great at that point where that bubble is going to burst. Perfect spot for humor.

00;34;26;13 - 00;34;31;15
Tim Conrad
Absolutely right. It's right there. But you have to be careful. It is a it is a dance.

00;34;31;18 - 00;34;40;20
Paul McCarthy
Yeah. And you have to be sure you're you're not being seen as like attacking someone. And that's a real challenge. It has blown up in my face from time to time.

00;34;40;21 - 00;34;41;23
Tim Conrad
Yeah.

00;34;41;26 - 00;34;43;16
Paul McCarthy
Hasn't ended well a few times.

00;34;43;19 - 00;34;47;09
Tim Conrad
Paul has learned the value of the mute button. I think it is. Right?

00;34;47;12 - 00;35;00;08
Paul McCarthy
Right. Yeah. No, I've learned that there is a mute button. Sometimes you just. I don't know when to use it exactly now. But there is a button. There is a button, apparently I don't know. Right.

00;35;00;14 - 00;35;01;25
Tim Conrad
So yeah.

00;35;01;27 - 00;35;17;06
Tim Conrad
one morning in the EOC, I'm not sure if you were there for this or not, but we were going around the table doing our updates from each of the sections. And, and it came around and there was a lot of tension in the room. That was one of our late night Collins after we were supposedly done for the day.

00;35;17;06 - 00;35;33;03
Tim Conrad
So we had done two days the day before, and we were launching into what was looking like another two day affair in a single day. And I could sense right away. When I got in the room that morning that everybody was kind of just done with the day already, right? So I was like, all right, I can't have this.

00;35;33;05 - 00;35;49;13
Tim Conrad
We got to change this. So we were going around and I was waiting until somebody said the word fire. That's all it took. That was my triggered. And as soon as somebody said fire, I was like, what did you did you say there's a fire? Where?

00;35;49;15 - 00;35;50;16
Paul McCarthy
Here.

00;35;50;19 - 00;35;59;06
Tim Conrad
And they're like, looked at me really stupid. And they went, yeah. And then I just got up and went, oh.

00;35;59;09 - 00;36;00;27
Speaker 3
Ran around the room.

00;36;01;00 - 00;36;07;13
Tim Conrad
And then ran out the door and you could see it in the street. And I ran down the street.

00;36;07;16 - 00;36;08;20
Paul McCarthy
I missed that day.

00;36;08;21 - 00;36;09;03
Speaker 3
Yeah,

00;36;09;05 - 00;36;09;12
Speaker 3
yeah.

00;36;09;13 - 00;36;30;04
Tim Conrad
And it, it was interesting. After the week later, we were we were out for supper, a bunch of us. And that moment came up and we were talking about something else and they said, why did you do that? And I told them I was like it was to break the tension. Everybody was going to kill everybody that day.

00;36;30;04 - 00;36;43;20
Tim Conrad
I could see that. And I knew, though, that we were a good team. We just needed to realize that we were. And so it was just to bring us back to our humanness. Right? Like to to cut it down. And so you're a magician at that?

00;36;43;20 - 00;36;44;09
Tim Conrad
Yeah. You weren't.

00;36;44;12 - 00;36;53;17
Paul McCarthy
Just like an audience, Tim. I had a captive audience. People were being paid to be there. That's when I got to talk to an audience that couldn't leave. It was great. Yeah,

00;36;53;17 - 00;36;56;01
Tim Conrad
he's got to face this really hard at getting an audience.

00;36;56;03 - 00;36;57;07
Tim Conrad
So he really.

00;36;57;09 - 00;37;04;00
Paul McCarthy
Their audience locked the door until knock knock jokes now.

00;37;04;03 - 00;37;18;12
Tim Conrad
Well, excellent. So next up we got three questions that I posed to every guest. So we're going to roll through them. What is one book documentary or resource that you recommend for those learning about crisis emergency management or firefighting?

00;37;18;14 - 00;37;46;20
Paul McCarthy
Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy A trilogy and four parts. So first thing. Apart from head is my favorite book of all time by Jocko Willock. Seriously. Okay, extreme leadership dichotomy of leadership. Yeah, really like Jocko stuff. Dan Crenshaw wrote a really good book called fortitude and had some great nuggets in that. Be Silent and Chaos is a really good, really good tidbit that I took out of that one.

00;37;46;22 - 00;38;05;20
Tim Conrad
yeah. And it's a good point. We just talked about being humorous and funny in those moments, but there's an awful lot of silence too, right? Like it's it's incredible at times, particularly this EOC, I think I brag to a lot of people about it. This EOC is Harmon and as quiet as could

00;38;05;25 - 00;38;06;12
Tim Conrad
be.

00;38;06;14 - 00;38;17;20
Paul McCarthy
Yeah. In like moving along. Yeah. And that's just hands up to the leadership in that organization, in that department who have invested in their staff and really got a process that just clicks. Yeah.

00;38;17;27 - 00;38;24;20
Tim Conrad
that's the other side too. They're bringing in people like yourself from other organizations and it's all part of the team. We're all one team. So.

00;38;24;20 - 00;38;33;10
Tim Conrad
So what advice could you offer? Information officers or communicators managing crisis emergencies and what would help them to perform their job more effectively?

00;38;33;14 - 00;38;35;25
Paul McCarthy
That's a good question.

00;38;35;27 - 00;38;56;10
Paul McCarthy
Focus on the whole event. We get called, you know, injury focused, you know, and try to get into that 50 zero zero zero foot mental drone and look at the big the big picture when you're telling the story, you know, not just the fires but where the people are or what's going to happen to, you know, the big story this year was, was agriculture.

00;38;56;10 - 00;39;19;04
Paul McCarthy
And hey, you know, some of that event is like people are really, really concerned about their hay crops. They've got $200,000 of hay crop and a $10,000 structure, and they're putting sprinklers on the structure. Yeah, I think that's the way really be important, because it would help other regional districts and authorities understand maybe you need to just shift a little bit.

00;39;19;05 - 00;39;31;00
Paul McCarthy
And so some of those stories and hold the winds up for, you know, hold other organizations up like BC wildfire has their Black belt and Incident Command like they're an incredible organization. So I think some share some of those wins.

00;39;31;04 - 00;39;39;01
Tim Conrad
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And how do you maintain your mental well-being during the most intense moments of a response?

00;39;39;01 - 00;39;43;25
Paul McCarthy
I don't know what mental wellbeing is, Tim.

00;39;43;28 - 00;40;08;24
Paul McCarthy
I don't know. Can we cuss on this podcast? Sure. Go ahead. So really gnarly calls, really bad calls, really bad EOC calls or everything's dark and gray and gloomy. And I tell myself, everybody wants to be a gangster until it's time to do gangster shit. And this is gangster shit. So you signed up for it. Take a breath.

00;40;08;27 - 00;40;10;10
Paul McCarthy
Make the next step.

00;40;10;13 - 00;40;14;23
Tim Conrad
it is. It's. You really do.

00;40;14;26 - 00;40;20;23
Tim Conrad
You have to compartmentalize some things in those moments? But it's it's. Yeah.

00;40;20;25 - 00;40;40;01
Paul McCarthy
Compartmentalize them in the moment. But deal with them holistically afterwards. You know, whether it's stretching to get the tension out of your body, going for a mountain bike ride, doing something to change your mind off. Like, I got a couple of breaks in September, which were I came back 100% recharged, ready to go. I wouldn't have done that seven years ago.

00;40;40;02 - 00;40;50;20
Paul McCarthy
I'm like, no, we're burning myself out until I can't see. My eyes are red and I'm shaking. Then it might be time to be told to go. No, no. We've got this. The team is really good. Trust your team and just trust when your limits are.

00;40;50;20 - 00;41;10;14
Tim Conrad
So and you know, the other side is, is like you always want to have someone that you trust enough that when you do something for them so that you'll get something in return. So Paul was nice enough. I had a terribly stiff neck at the one day, and Paul could see it right away, and he came over and offered to give me a massage.

00;41;10;14 - 00;41;16;09
Tim Conrad
And I accept it because I'm I'm fully open to that. And you massage me in front of everybody in the EOK that day,

00;41;16;14 - 00;41;16;18
Tim Conrad
you.

00;41;16;18 - 00;41;17;21
Paul McCarthy
Didn't have to take your pants off.

00;41;17;21 - 00;41;18;04
Tim Conrad
But it.

00;41;18;04 - 00;41;19;21
Speaker 3
Was a little odd. But it's strange.

00;41;19;25 - 00;41;28;02
Tim Conrad
It happens and you know, you got to feel comfortable and, you know, you got a neck kiss out of it after, because that's how we talk.

00;41;28;03 - 00;41;29;05
Paul McCarthy
That was interesting.

00;41;29;06 - 00;41;30;24
Tim Conrad
Yeah, well.

00;41;30;27 - 00;41;32;10
Paul McCarthy
Yeah, it's.

00;41;32;11 - 00;41;35;07
Tim Conrad
I didn't have any money.

00;41;35;10 - 00;41;42;08
Paul McCarthy
You know what? You could have be transfer me after. But I'll take what I get. Any port in a storm,

00;41;42;16 - 00;41;44;06
Paul McCarthy
Tim. All right, well.

00;41;44;07 - 00;41;52;13
Tim Conrad
Look, man, I appreciate you joining me on the wildfires, Floods and Chaos Communications podcast. And on that note.

00;41;52;15 - 00;41;59;14
Speaker 3
Oh, you kind of shaved.

00;41;59;16 - 00;42;00;10
Tim Conrad
Me shower

00;42;00;17 - 00;42;08;08
Tim Conrad
I get to work alongside some pretty great people, and Paul has met them too.

00;42;08;11 - 00;42;28;16
Tim Conrad
We compete for who gets the last dig and I win on this round. Working with Paul has been a great experience. He understands the balance between regulation and reality and we all have to do that juggle. He knows how to work together with everyone to achieve results. He sees the current and the future, and he plans for both at the same time.

00;42;28;16 - 00;42;46;24
Tim Conrad
And he has that bitter honesty. Many of us love to see in leadership, who can call it like it is, with a punch line at the end. He can bounce between bitter reality and laughter in the moment, and it's awesome to have. If you want to learn more about chief McCarthy, you can contact him. Just like all of our other guests.

00;42;46;24 - 00;43;14;15
Tim Conrad
You can find this on our website in the Show Notes. Pop over to WW communications podcast and thanks for being on the show, Paul. Keep my parking spot in front of the hydrant open, would you? If you like this episode, check out episode 17. Is it trash or truth? With California Battalion Chief Pete Jensen? The wildfires, Floods and Chaos Communications podcast is a production of Butterfly Effect Communications.

00;43;14;15 - 00;43;17;17
Tim Conrad
Copyright 2026. Goodbye. Hear me later.